catholicsphere

In the Spring of 2002, I had two Mormon missionaries come to my door.  I didn’t have the time to speak with them at that time, but they asked if they could come back, and when would be a good time.  I told them that Saturday morning would be good, and they agreed to come back.  The following is an account of the discussion, written shortly after that conversation occurred.  Hopefully it will be helpful to you in understanding some of the deeper/finer points of Catholicism, as well as some aspects of Mormonism.

Well, I thought I’d share the experience of discussing with Mormon Elders (missionaries). They came to my door on Thursday evening, just as I and my family were sitting down to dinner. I did not have time to talk with them at that moment, but asked if they could come back another time. They returned on Saturday, as promised (and expected), around 11am. We talked for 1 1/2 to 2 hours. I’ll probably be adding to this story and posting it in a different form and with different emphasis on my website in the coming weeks (hopefully not months).

I began the discussion under the premis that I had some understanding of Mormonism, but not alot. They wanted to answer any questions I had. {smile} For those who like me to cut-to-the-chase, I’ll tell you that by the end of our conversation, they were basically speechless … they were not sure what to say.

We first spent a little time talking about family stuff … I shared my thoughts on family and work and society, which they were happy to hear as my family is the focal point, the center of my life. We developed a good repoire (sp?) right from the start …

We then began talking a little bit about the Book of Mormon and its origins. By the way, I never let them get onto any script that they may have been taught or were to work from. I dove in with my dialog … asking them to correct me where I might be wrong or have misunderstood things …

I gave them my understanding of where the Book of Mormon came from in a nutshell, and they confirmed it to be correct. [For those that don't know, **supposedly** Joseph Smith was visited by the angel Moroni {pronounced mo-rhone-eye} and told of the restoration of Christ's Church, and shown where "gold plates" were that contained the writings. He transcribed, with the help of the angel, the no-longer-existant, ancient Egyptian language into English, and it became the Book of Mormon. The "gold plates" were taken back up into heaven by God.]

Now, the first thing that I inquired about was the “gold plates”. I stated that I, having talked to a member of the LDS church online about the Book of Mormon, was curious about where these plates were. He’d told me that they were taken back into heaven. I told these two elders that I thought that to be “convenient” … and that I did not mean to sound “trite”.

They were about to show me information from the “witnesses” … to corroborate the story. These witnesses basically were close friends and family. I said that if we’d brought this into a courtroom sense, it wouldn’t really stand, legally, because it was only corroborated by family and friends. They did mention a book out there by a Mormon lawyer that attempts to make a “legal” case for the history, etc of Book of Mormon.

I switched gears … moving to a little bit of “content” issues. There is described in the Book of Mormon, a great battle that took place between the Lamanites and the Nephites, supposedly in A.D. 421. In terms of archeology, this is only yesterday. Yet, there is no archaeological evidence that this battle ever took place. There is in the “Book” a description that many, many people were killed on the battlefield, but archaeologists have found no bones or weapons, etc.

There was not much response to that.

I switched gears again … to the authority issue … this became the focal point of our discussion for the duration of our time. I basically commended the LDS Church for their recognition of the need for Apostolic authority. [The LDS Church claims that their leaders were given authority through the appearance of Peter, James and John, in a visitation around the time that the Mormon Church was founded in 1830.] I stated that basically, only the Catholic Church makes such a claim to apostolic authority. (I kept Orthodoxy out of this for the sake of simplicity and they didn’t press that issue.)

The LDS Church’s contention is that there was a need for the restoration of the Church on earth as the “original” Christian Church had long since gone apostate (practically with the death of the last apostle, John). I said, now … if a total apostasy of the Church occurred, then there was a need for restoration and the Mormon Church has valid claims to such. BUT, if the total apostasy of the Church did NOT occur, then the Catholic Church … as the Church founded by Christ Jesus (and the only Church making such a claim) … is the true Church and the Mormon church is a counterfeit. (Note: I kept referring back to this a couple of times in our discussions, to keep it fresh in their minds.)

They agreed.

I began, “From my reading of the Scriptures, I find that while apostasy was prevalent in the early church, and there were many warnings to people to hold true to the faith they had learned at first, there is nothing that tells of a total apostasy of the Church.” I continued, “In fact, while the Bible speaks of apostasy FROM the Church, it does not speak of apostasy OF the Church. That, I believe, is an important distinction.”

Some response, but not too much. A few minutes of talk ensued. Nothing to counter my arguments. Not even the passage in Amos 8:11-12 “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign Lord, “when I will send a famine through the land-not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord. Men will stagger from sea to sea and wander from north to east, searching for the word of the Lord, but they will not find it.”

[Note: They typically hold that this passage speaks of a total apostasy, where the Word will not be found though men may search "from sea to sea". They hold that this cannot be the Old Testament, because that was not total, and men could still find the Truth present on earth ... a "remnant" remained faithful.]

I had basically dominated the discussion. This was truly an instruction session by me to them. I continued to speak to them about the various things surrounding authority. I brought it down to the point of either the Catholic Church is right or the Mormon Church is right. And I gave basis for the Catholic position by bringing up the matter of Jesus and His Church being the “light” of the world, and the “city on a hill that cannot be hidden”. The “Light” will not be extinguished in the world. Jesus did not say He was the Light of the World and found His church, and promise to be with it until the end of time, only to have it go out, or go away in a matter of a few decades (or centuries, depending on who you talk to).

We talked a little about this, but I’ll save too much more dialogue for another time, for the sake of some brevity.

Then, they tried to get on track a bit by bringing me to consider whether the Book of Mormon was true … and wanted me to read the Book of Mormon (a few select passages) and pray about. We then talked a bit about prayer and how God communicates to us.

On that matter, I countered that God speaks to us in history as well as through prayer, and that we can confirm the messages that we receive in prayer through the witness of history and what we have already learned and from whom we’ve learned it. [ They typically want you to have a **feeling** that God is speaking to you in the Spirit, and it is said to be felt through a "burning in your bosom". ] I wanted to head that off.

I quoted Paul’s statement to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:14-15. Using this to demonstrate the “from whom you learned it” part of the “evidence” that I was presenting.

I spoke to the matter of early Church history and the matter of heresies creeping in, but always a faithful remnant of the Church who did not fall away, and who helped others back to the true Christian position. I spoke to the matter of such evidence as a confirmation which we needed of those things that were revealed or spoken to us by God in prayer. So that we may be able to discern the Spirit of God from a spirit of deception. (I brought in an short description of my understanding of one letter in C.S. Lewis’ Screwtape Letters, about the goal of the demons not to keep one from thinking of God, but getting him/her to think wrongly about God.)

After a little more discussion, I opened matters up for them to look into this closer for themselves. I offered them an invitation to look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church with the Scriptures and the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and to confirm these things for themselves.

They said that they appreciated the challenge and basically accepted it … (of course, because of rules, they would have to wait until after their missions work was over because they have rules which state that they may not read or do certain things during missions).

In turn, they got in their purposed challenge … to have me read select passages of the Book of Mormon and pray about the truth of it. I said I would. And I reminded them of the position of authority and the matter of evidence.

We basically ended our discussions and cordially departed. They had said that they truly felt the Spirit of God on [my house], and that our discussions had been with the presence of the Holy Ghost, and they appreciated this time and had gained much understanding of the Catholic Church from the discussion. They said that they thought that I was unlike many Catholics they’d run into … and they enjoyed talking with me. [Had I not dominated the conversation, I would have taken that quite differently.] I thanked them and told them that I tried to make my faith a living faith and not just a “Sunday” faith. They said they thought that was important (of course) and could tell.

I closed our discussions by leading them in prayer.

All-in-all it was pretty awesome! I could feel the Spirit with me, leading me and my words. If any would have come in and not known who was who, they might have thought me to be the evangelist, the missionary. After they left, I was still on this “high” … still all revved up by the Spirit.

Our conversation had been very calm and charitable … and there seems to be a chance that the seeds that were planted were planted on soil and not on rocky ground. I may never know what happens with them, but certainly I feel that I shared what I could with them by the power and guidance of the Spirit.