Let me start off by saying “Welcome to CatholicSphere” and thank you for your comment.

There is definitely a lot to cover in what you’ve said here. I’ll do my best to answer, and give explanation of some of the background of my beliefs upon which those answers rest. Beyond the verses you’ve cited, there are elements of your reply that are based on certain prerequisite beliefs that have led you to the further conclusions you have drawn.

I offer, for example, my understanding of what you mean when you say something like “Man doesn’t understand that he is completely and utterly worthless, he has nothing of value…” Here, I read into it the perspective of a classic Calvinist position of “total depravity” that underlies the rest of your statement. There are elements of that doctrine that are not compatible with Catholic understanding, therefore, it will be necessary to keep that in mind as you read my responses, particularly where I may not have made some of my prerequisite beliefs clear. Hope that makes sense.

That said, I think it is necessary to speak a bit to your first definition of “law” according to Paul, because I understand it to be foundational in looking at these passages you’ve presented. I would agree that Paul is most often referring to the “law” precisely according to the definition that you’ve offered. Hoever, let me also say that Catholicism does not ascribe merit to works in the way that the Mosaic law did.

Based on your statement that you are “pressed to say ‘Yes’ it is true that the Bible teaches ’salvation by faith alone without works of any kind’”, I would venture to say right now that we would be in agreement with the belief that we are not saved by “works of righteousness”, in the understanding held under the Mosaic law.

Some more background on my (and the Catholic) belief on the relationship on Faith and Works can be found in my entry: Faith alone or Faith and works. Reading that might aid in clarifying my statements here, and offer some brevity (which I’m certain will be much needed in order to cover things adequately).

I think the key thing to keep in mind through all the verses is how the sacrifice of Christ Jesus plays in; how the grace of God and His promises figure into the equation of salvation.

As many of the verses you’ve cited point out, it is due to the grace of God, merited by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, that we are, and will be saved. This faith response is not merely intellectual assent, as some whom my original post refers to have said, but also doing the will of God, including worshipping Him, obeying his commands, etc. It is with this understanding that I absolutely agree with your statement on Rom 10:9 …

For one cannot confess that Jesus is Lord, unless He is their Lord…

That pretty much sums up the point of my post. That’s not the way its referred to universally however.

“I agree with your definition of faith, but not in how you used the “logic approach” to imposing it upon the scripture. You jumped right into works rather than discussing your points of a) b) & c). How do we come to a) if God promises something, we believe it? It is obvious that not all people believe this, otherwise God would not be irrelevant to today’s culture. So something has to happen to those who believe in a) that makes them different than the world’s population.”

Those of us who are of faith believe in God’s promises. That is not to say that everyone does; but rather those of us who have faith believe God. What happens to those of us who have faith is that we have been moved by God to respond to Him call to faith.

This may sound like its not something the Catholic Church teaches, but let me assure you it is, by quoting Catholic teaching from the Catehism of the Catholic Church: “Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. … The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity.”

In other words, man owes nothing — not even his response of faith — to his own power or initiative, but rather to God who provides the grace to elevate our mind and hearts to respond in faith. As such, man can boast of nothing of his own in his salvation, for he owes that to God.

With that understanding, I feel this is the crux of the Protestant/Catholic disagreement about the role of works in salvation:

For a Christian (of any denomination) works, or good works are a natural outcome of being brought to life and abiding “in Christ”, they are the fruit of the spirit that now lives in us.

As we think about this, though, Catholic doctrine and Protestant doctrine need not be at odds on this. Catholicism point to those “good works” as “fruit of the spirit” because they are produced by the grace given by God.

The first question that comes to my mind here, though, is what about the presistence of non-good, bad or evil works, in the life of the believer? It is my belief that this is the remaining struggle between our life in the Spirit and our former life. Recognizing this, Paul speaks of the war in the body between the spirit and the flesh.

There must, however, be growth in the life of the Christian — again, Paul speaks in the Scripture about “milk” vs “solid food” in relation to growth in grace and righteousness. Through that, synergistically with the work of the Holy Spirt in us, we are being conformed to the perfection that God calls us to, so that we truly and really become holy, not just whitewash on a broken down fence.

Now, when we take all that, we can apply it to the verses you’ve presented; keeping in mind that pages can (and have) been written on each:

When we look at Eph 2:8-9, we see that it is not saying that works are not necessary, but that it is a faithful response to God’s grace that deserves the credit.

Eph 1:3-6 relates to God’s eternal plan, to share His life with us; knowing who would and would not accept the gifts He offered. Paul praises God for His wisdom that has brought such a great gift to them, that they should be among those that share in His plan.

Rom 3:27-28, Gal 2:16, 21 — Salvation is not by our own power, under the laws of the old covenants, but from the grace of God, which is now power to keep God’s commands in faith; to live according to the “a”, “b” and “c” ["abc"] that I mentioned.

Rom 4… — Paul speaks of works toward recieving a wage; but that’s not what salvation is; we receive it not because we are “good enough”, but because God has promised it to those who have the “abc” faith.

The other verses are along the same lines as those above. But I stop here simply cuz this is really long.

Pax!

How do you address verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith: and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast”?

or Ephesians 1:3-6, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ; According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love; having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”?

or Romans 3:27-28, “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? or works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

or Romans 4:1-5, “What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

or Romans 4:15-16, “Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed’ not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.”

or Romans 9:11, “(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.”

or the scriptures of Galatians, 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Galatians 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Galatians 3:10-14, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

or Titus vs 3:3-7, “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful , and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

I agree with your definition of faith, but not in how you used the “logic approach” to imposing it upon the scripture. You jumped right into works rather than discussing your points of a) b) & c). How do we come to a) if God promises something, we believe it? It is obvious that not all people believe this, otherwise God would not be irrelevant to today’s culture. So something has to happen to those who believe in a) that makes them different than the world’s population.
There is no “intellectual assent” in the understanding of Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” For one cannot confess that Jesus is Lord, unless He is their Lord – (Rom 6:16 “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which has delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”)

If we, having been brought to life in Christ, believe that scripture is God’s truth and it affirms that it says that the “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23), and that “the wages of sin is death” ( Rom 6:23) – then we that are alive (quickened) in Christ are those that are written of in Ephesians 2 : “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Satan), Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)”
It is important to understand “works unto death” and “works unto righteousness”. Works unto death are works done by the dead that have no efficacy in leading to life. Whereas works unto righteousness are not works done to gain righteousness, but are works done because of righteousness.
For a Christian (of any denomination) works, or good works are a natural outcome of being brought to life and abiding “in Christ”, they are the fruit of the spirit that now lives in us. Abiding in Christ, means living in and for our Lord and Master. We are not our own, we have never been our own! We have always been a slave…..the question then is whose slave are ye? Who do you serve….the Lord Jesus Christ or do you serve…..Self, Sin and Satan? There are only two types of children in the world and everyone belongs to one of the groups – children of wrath or children of righteousness. The thing that is so hard for man to understand, because of pride, is that we are all born as children of wrath and it is only in Gods pleasure that some of those children will be adopted into His family by the blood of Christ (the payment for adoption). The works that a Christian does are not for merit but for the glory of God.
Man struggles with this for a couple reasons – 1) Man wants to be important and cannot completely understand the idea of sovereignty nor does he want to be subject to a sovereign (the issue of a free moral agent).
2) Man doesn’t understand that he is completely and utterly worthless, he has nothing of value, nor can he do anything of value or merit that would then gain him salvation.

I’d like to hear how you handle the verses that I’ve listed above but I have to confess that I am pressed to say that “Yes”, it is true that the Bible teaches “salvation by faith alone without works of any kind.”

I would welcome and encourage comments — and objections — to this, if people have any.

Edgar,